Dog-Human Training Dynamics & Does Breed Matter?
Souha Ezzedeen, explains the 4th pillar of her dog training method, ‘The Way of Life’ which deals with space and boundaries and limits on a new dog no matter what the age. Deb asks Souha if there are any breeds she does not enjoy training and that sparked a breed conversation, about the border collies, pit bulls and pugs. Does breed matter? Will the Xl Bullie ban in England bring good results? Can a pug learn and remember? There certainly are many bored medicated couch-potato working dogs, but is your dog an over worked over stimulated border collie or Aus. Shep? Like a kid with too many lessons after school?
Send your pet question voice clips to deb@petliferadio.com to get your personal pet problems solved.
Listen to Episode #180 Now:
BIO:
Souha Ezzedeen, PhD, is a university professor, dog trainer and coach, founder of Way of Life™ Dog Training in Ontario, Canada, and author of the book The Way of Life Method: How to Heal Your Relationship with Your Dog and Raise a Sound, Strong, and Spirited Companion (At Any Age). Souha draws on nearly two decades of diverse experiences with dogs in her training business. As an academic for more than 25 years with expertise in management and organizational behavior, Souha has a curious mind, loves research, and is well-versed in the behavioral theories that undergird mainstream dog training.
When she faced complex challenges with her dog, Maya, Souha dove deep into a theoretical and practical study of all things canine. That study soon became a passion, which revealed itself to be a calling to help dog owners and their companions develop stronger relationships. Today, her goal is to share all she’s learned about the human-canine bond with people struggling to achieve a more harmonious life with their dogs.
In addition to training companion dogs of all breeds and ages, Souha has experience walking and fostering rescue and shelter dogs, boarding challenging dogs, and continuing to work through new challenges with more dogs
of her own. Souha has been active in dog sport from the beginning, including sheep herding, obedience, and scent work, learning to nurture both stability and drive in her dogs.
Transcript:
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Announcer: This is Pet Life Radio.
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Announcer: Let's talk pets.
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Deborah Wolfe: Hello, you're listening to Animal Party on Pet Life Radio.
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Deborah Wolfe: And if you've been listening to me talking on the radio for a few years, you probably remember back in 2021, I was talking a lot about coyotes, yes.
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Deborah Wolfe: Coyotes were biting people in the big park here in downtown Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.
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Deborah Wolfe: Huge, beautiful park in the middle of downtown.
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Deborah Wolfe: Forest and sea and ocean, beautiful, beautiful.
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Deborah Wolfe: 10K run around the outside.
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Deborah Wolfe: It's a lovely place, Stanley Park.
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Deborah Wolfe: But the coyotes were attacking people.
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Deborah Wolfe: And they ended up killing 11 of them because of it.
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Deborah Wolfe: People were feeding them.
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Deborah Wolfe: And they caught the couple that was doing it.
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Deborah Wolfe: It was a 70-year-old couple.
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Deborah Wolfe: And they finally went to court.
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Deborah Wolfe: And they're going to end up paying quite a lot of money.
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Deborah Wolfe: And because it was intentional.
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Deborah Wolfe: They were feeding the animals intentionally.
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Deborah Wolfe: They say they were trying to feed birds and smaller animals and not the coyotes.
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Deborah Wolfe: But at the time, it was all over the news.
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Deborah Wolfe: And children were being hurt.
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Deborah Wolfe: People were being hospitalized.
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Deborah Wolfe: Grown men were being chased.
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Deborah Wolfe: So in the end, they caught the people who were actually feeding the coyotes.
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Deborah Wolfe: And hopefully, they did it in a very public way.
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Deborah Wolfe: So people will stop feeding wildlife.
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Deborah Wolfe: All it does is put people at risk and the animals at risk.
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Deborah Wolfe: So around here, we say a fed bear is a dead bear.
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Deborah Wolfe: So don't feed the wildlife.
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Deborah Wolfe: If you really want to get close to them, get a zoom lens.
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Deborah Wolfe: Don't feed them.
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Deborah Wolfe: Okay, everybody, we are here today with Souha Ezzedeen.
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Deborah Wolfe: This is our second show because last time we ran out of time.
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Deborah Wolfe: It was just too good.
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Deborah Wolfe: And we're talking about The Way of Life Dog Training, which is her new book.
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Deborah Wolfe: And there's going to be links posted alongside this show.
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Deborah Wolfe: If you want to buy the book, and I think you should, all you got to do is click.
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Deborah Wolfe: So welcome to the show, Souha.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Thank you.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Thank you for having me back.
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Deborah Wolfe: Well, last time we talked about socializing your dog and the attitude of the handler.
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Deborah Wolfe: And the drive and food and how to use that to train the dog.
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Deborah Wolfe: So we kind of covered three of your main points, but we didn't get to number four.
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Deborah Wolfe: So when you're reshaping the way your dog thinks about you and its world, what's number four?
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Souha Ezzedeen: Number four is what I call managing space and boundaries.
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Souha Ezzedeen: So I'll give you an example, Deb.
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Souha Ezzedeen: When we first bring a dog home, one of the things we love to do with this new dog is give this new dog the run of the house, the run of the yard, take him to the dog park, take him to a hike and cut him loose in the woods.
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Deborah Wolfe: Take him to the office, take him to the mother-in-law, take him to the park, take him to the pet store.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Yes, exactly.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Take him not only everywhere, but also to give a level of freedom that is not appropriate for the level of relationship that we have with that dog at that time.
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Souha Ezzedeen: It is no wonder so many dogs that are new, that are freshly acquired, freshly adopted, get lost so quickly because we're not careful of maintaining space and boundaries with a dog that is not yet attached to us, a dog that doesn't know us yet, a dog that could be freaked out, wants to go back to wherever they came from.
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Souha Ezzedeen: So we need to establish space and boundaries with new dogs.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And then eventually loosen up.
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Souha Ezzedeen: But if we start off loose, we can never end up with a dog that can handle freedom responsibly.
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Souha Ezzedeen: I want to tighten up the level of choice that a dog has in the beginning and then eventually give them more and more and more with time.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Ultimately, the aim of the Way of Life Method is to raise dogs that are sound, strong and spirited.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And that ultimately can enjoy a life where, to the extent that I can, I don't need to have a leash on this dog, that they can really enjoy freedom of movement, freedom of choice, but that they would have been raised, Deb, in a way that they can handle that.
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Souha Ezzedeen: But we're putting the cart before the horse and giving this dog freedom that not only they're not ready for, but that is not their highest priority.
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Souha Ezzedeen: When a dog is new in my home and they're a rescue and who knows what they've experienced already, their priority is to feel safety, which I give through structure and minimizing freedom.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And then eventually, freedom becomes something that we practice over time and it becomes the result of dog guardians that would have taken their time at foundations, taken their time with that primordial socialization I talked about earlier.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And then eventually, freedom like trust becomes the result of a way of life that's been designed correctly.
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Deborah Wolfe: I want to ask you at this stage, because recently in England, they decided to make a ban against what they call XL Bullies.
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Deborah Wolfe: American Bully Dogs.
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Deborah Wolfe: Well, I'm just going to tell the audience too.
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Deborah Wolfe: So it's basically the pit bulls and the large American bulldogs and anything square faced and tough looking that you might think of as a bulldog, is now you have to spay and neuter, you can't breed, you can't sell, you can't rehome.
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Deborah Wolfe: If you have one now, you can spay, neuter, microchip, get huge insurance.
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Deborah Wolfe: The police will call on you to make sure that your place is appropriately set up so the dog can never escape.
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Deborah Wolfe: I mean, the measures are huge.
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Deborah Wolfe: And in public, they must always be on lead and muzzled.
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Deborah Wolfe: It makes it very, very difficult to want to own one of these dogs.
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Deborah Wolfe: Your life will be extremely curtailed and the cost is huge.
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Deborah Wolfe: But it makes me wonder, like I personally don't fear training these dogs and don't refuse them at my boarding kennel.
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Deborah Wolfe: And don't have, I mean, a bad dog's a bad dog, a good dog's a good dog.
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Deborah Wolfe: And yes, these dogs, when they're difficult, can be dangerous because they're armed to the teeth.
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Deborah Wolfe: And some of them, I did a show with Dr.
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Deborah Wolfe: Stan Coren years ago about this, and he mentioned, maybe a year ago, he mentioned the fact that because so many bad apple people are breeding for bad reasons, this type of dog, the gladiator fighting dog, has bad members overrepresented in their genetics because that's what they've been shooting for all these years.
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Deborah Wolfe: The same way hunters wanted good retrievers who wouldn't kill the duck, these people have been breeding for opposite traits.
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Deborah Wolfe: So the market gets flooded with their rejects.
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Deborah Wolfe: So there is the fact that these dogs, perhaps because of the bad breeding, may be more of a risk, but I just shudder when I hear a breed law like this.
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Deborah Wolfe: I just think it's so indiscriminate.
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Deborah Wolfe: What do you think of this?
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Souha Ezzedeen: Yes.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Well, here in Ontario, as you know, we also have a breed ban on pit bull or pit bull type dogs.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And I agree with you, Deb.
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Souha Ezzedeen: I'm not a fan at all of this kind of broad sweeping legislation where many dogs will definitely be treated very unfairly because of others that have, as you said, the many bad apples where now they've contaminated the entire breed and the mind of the public and therefore the minds of politicians looking for quick quote unquote solutions, solutions that don't work.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Those sweeping breed bans end up really hurting the animals more than any other stakeholder and not doing much to educate the owners, the handlers, and even the trainers that deal with these kinds of dogs because they tend to be treated with a great deal of harshness and force because we think that that is what the breed requires when in my experience that makes these kinds of dogs even more difficult, even more dangerous, even harder, treated with hardness and they will respond with hardness.
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Souha Ezzedeen: So, you know, I agree with you.
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Souha Ezzedeen: I would not turn away this kind of dog.
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Souha Ezzedeen: I would not refuse to work with this kind of dog at all.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And, you know, I find that the breed excuse is one of those ways that we explain dog behavior.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And I talk about that in the book that is not helping us.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Now, that doesn't mean that the breed doesn't have its place in the entire equation of a dog's behavior.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Breed is powerful.
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Deborah Wolfe: It's very powerful.
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Deborah Wolfe: Like I tell, I tell shelter owners, if you call a shelter and you walk toward it, it will not come.
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Deborah Wolfe: It's bred to follow.
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Deborah Wolfe: Like you just can't do it.
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Deborah Wolfe: But you can walk toward a lab and call it.
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Deborah Wolfe: It'll sit and wait for you.
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Deborah Wolfe: It's a different breed.
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Souha Ezzedeen: There are breed differences.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And to deny breed differences, it's disenchanted.
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Souha Ezzedeen: It's not helpful.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Of course, the breed matters.
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Souha Ezzedeen: But my entire philosophy, as I said, is based on the way of life.
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Souha Ezzedeen: What does the way of life of that dog look like?
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Souha Ezzedeen: Let us design a way of life that makes sense and eventually give it some time.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And now we have a steady dog on our hands.
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Souha Ezzedeen: But unfortunately, this has been happening so much, so frequently.
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Souha Ezzedeen: One incident can be one too many.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And now you have these kinds of actions on the part of governments and jurisdictions, et cetera.
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Souha Ezzedeen: I began my volunteering career, Deb, at Toronto Humane Society in the wake of the pit bull ban here in Ontario.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And it was unbelievable, the number of dogs that made their way into the shelter.
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Souha Ezzedeen: There were even some dogs that had stayed there for months and months and months until their owners could figure out a way to get them back and out of province.
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Souha Ezzedeen: So we not only took on dogs and then put them up for adoption or tried to get them out of province, but also there were dogs that we housed for a while until they could go back home.
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Souha Ezzedeen: So it was heartbreaking to see that many dogs suffering as a result of this kind of generalization.
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Souha Ezzedeen: So anyhow, the breed matters, but so does the way of life.
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Souha Ezzedeen: So again, I would have questions.
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Souha Ezzedeen: How did we socialize this dog?
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Souha Ezzedeen: How did we train this dog?
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Souha Ezzedeen: Did we train it harshly?
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Souha Ezzedeen: Did we train these dogs to actually be even more prey-driven, be even more powerful?
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Souha Ezzedeen: And there are ways to settle them down.
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Souha Ezzedeen: So I'll give you an example.
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Souha Ezzedeen: We have this idea that with this kind of a dog, that they need to be exercised a lot.
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Souha Ezzedeen: You need to put them on a bike, or you need to take them on running by your ATV.
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Souha Ezzedeen: High intensity, high energy kind of exercise.
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Souha Ezzedeen: Well, that has its place, but one can overdo.
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Deborah Wolfe: Yes, because then you get an extreme athlete who never gets enough.
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Deborah Wolfe: I've seen that with the standard poodles, which is not a serious problem.
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Deborah Wolfe: But my standard poodles who live here, when they're in their prime, they run with every group of dogs.
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Deborah Wolfe: They're in such peak shape.
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Deborah Wolfe: If I take them on a 10K run, they come back and keep running.
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Deborah Wolfe: There's just no limit when the dog's that super fit.
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Deborah Wolfe: And you don't want a dog with behavioral problems to be super, super, super, super athletic and fit and intense and craving exercise every day.
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Deborah Wolfe: I totally agree with that.
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Souha Ezzedeen: There's a place for it.
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Souha Ezzedeen: But if you know how to manage the other aspects of the way of life in a way that balances out the high energy, high intensity exercise that let's say you want to give your dog, that is all right.
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Souha Ezzedeen: I'll tell you where I see this, Deb, is in clients that come to me with very sporty dogs.
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Deborah Wolfe: Yeah, like Vislas.
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Souha Ezzedeen: They're in agility.
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Souha Ezzedeen: They're in fly ball.
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Souha Ezzedeen: They're in barn hunt.
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Souha Ezzedeen: They're in herding.
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Souha Ezzedeen: They're doing all these sports.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And the dog is constantly stimulated and energized and exercised in those ways.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And then we come back home and related to the aspect of space and boundaries, we come back home with this high drive, high intensity dog.
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Souha Ezzedeen: And then we give the dog freedom around the house.
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Souha Ezzedeen: No, have a dog like that, that you have in sport, that you have in high intensity exercises and activities, come back home and rest them.
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Deborah Wolfe: Yes, like police dogs.
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Deborah Wolfe: They don't work every day, every hour.
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Deborah Wolfe: Yes, where they can just tune out and go to sleep.
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Deborah Wolfe: And work is not, it's not time to work.
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Deborah Wolfe: Okay, we're going to go to a break and we're going to come back on Animal Party Pet Life Radio with our guest Souha Ezzedeen.
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Deborah Wolfe: Hello, we're back on Animal Party, Pet Life Radio with Souha Ezzedeen.
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Deborah Wolfe: And when I began my career, people were big on getting border collies, and then putting them on Prozac because they were OCD, so the people said, and they wouldn't sit still.
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Deborah Wolfe: And they got the border collies because they were ranked the smartest dogs in the intelligence of dogs, but so were poodles and dobermans.
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Deborah Wolfe: But anyway, they got the border collie, and then they gave it a couch potato life and wondered why it wasn't satisfied.
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Deborah Wolfe: So those dogs, I used to tell people, you gotta give your dog way more exercise.
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Deborah Wolfe: This is not on.
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Deborah Wolfe: You gotta teach it fetch, take it to the dog park.
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Deborah Wolfe: If you're a couch potato and you've got a shepherd dog that's meant to hurt animals, you gotta get it out.
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Deborah Wolfe: But what you're talking about is people who go too far the other way.
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Deborah Wolfe: And I've had people who will argue with me that it's okay to take their dog on a very fast run at age 10 or older in the heat of the day during a heat wave because he's always been fine.
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Deborah Wolfe: And so sometimes there's that going on too, where you really have to give people, animals age quick.
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Deborah Wolfe: When your dog's 10 or eight, he's not able to do what he could do at two, three or four.
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Deborah Wolfe: You're talking about an old man now.
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Deborah Wolfe: And he will keep up with you just because he loves you and he loves the game and he's used to it and it's his routine.
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Deborah Wolfe: But maybe it's better off for you to go for that run by yourself and pick him up for the warm up leg, you know?
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Souha Ezzedeen: Potentially, that's right.
00:15:07.041 --> 00:15:23.121
Souha Ezzedeen: But it's also in part because in the dog culture, in the mainstream dog culture, we overemphasize the place of exercise and sport as being our dog's source of happiness, you know, as being the reason why dogs are even alive.
00:15:23.521 --> 00:15:42.821
Souha Ezzedeen: Meanwhile, I'm saying, if you design your way of life correctly in a way that is appropriate to the stage of your relationship and the stage of your dog's maturity, then that is really what your dog wants, is to feel that they gel with you, that you have that relationship and you're getting through life together.
00:15:42.841 --> 00:15:49.301
Souha Ezzedeen: It's not just about exercise or sport, it's about the relationship that you're sharing, doing those activities together.
00:15:49.741 --> 00:15:56.001
Souha Ezzedeen: We tend to think that exercise is what's gonna make our dogs happy or sport is what's gonna make our dogs happy.
00:15:56.021 --> 00:16:05.081
Souha Ezzedeen: And don't get me wrong, those are very important aspects of a dog's life, that the relationship that is driving all of this is really what the dogs wanted that we want.
00:16:05.481 --> 00:16:19.761
Souha Ezzedeen: And going back to the idea of the Border Collie, Deb, about 15 to 20%, I would say, easily of the clients that I see are Aussies or Border Collies or Aussie Border Collie mixes, these kinds of dogs that are incredibly intelligent.
00:16:19.881 --> 00:16:22.721
Souha Ezzedeen: And indeed, I see the two scenarios.
00:16:23.261 --> 00:16:29.201
Souha Ezzedeen: Scenario one, the Couch Potato Life, and now this dog's going crazy, and then the dog's medicated.
00:16:29.681 --> 00:16:40.861
Souha Ezzedeen: Then the other scenario is the dog where the human thinks, the guardian of that dog thinks that the only way to make this dog happy and sound is by the sporting life.
00:16:41.061 --> 00:16:45.301
Souha Ezzedeen: Monday at Barn Hunt, Tuesday at agility, dog diving on the weekend, whatever else.
00:16:45.361 --> 00:16:47.441
Souha Ezzedeen: And then very poor management.
00:16:47.461 --> 00:16:49.601
Deborah Wolfe: Poor dog, you see kids like that, right?
00:16:49.841 --> 00:16:57.301
Deborah Wolfe: Kids who are so strung out because they're in a hurry to get to karate because they just left dance, you know, this kid ever get to rest.
00:16:57.421 --> 00:16:58.021
Souha Ezzedeen: Correct.
00:16:58.021 --> 00:16:59.821
Souha Ezzedeen: And the dogs also need the rest.
00:17:00.121 --> 00:17:06.841
Souha Ezzedeen: But not only the rest, they need to come back to a situation that is structured, that is regulated, where they can rest.
00:17:06.841 --> 00:17:21.241
Souha Ezzedeen: So I tell my people that if you're asking so much of this dog in the training arena and the herding arena, in trialing, in sport, et cetera, when you're coming back home, why are you asking your dog to now be social with everybody?
00:17:21.521 --> 00:17:24.901
Souha Ezzedeen: The dog is spent, the dog is tired, they need rest.
00:17:25.341 --> 00:17:34.541
Souha Ezzedeen: And I see it a lot where dogs that are very sporty come back to a home where there's other dogs, they're put together all the time, there's no one-on-one time, no one-on-one rest.
00:17:34.621 --> 00:17:41.001
Souha Ezzedeen: And so this all pertains to the other pillar of the way of life method, which we're talking about space and boundaries.
00:17:41.321 --> 00:17:57.741
Souha Ezzedeen: If I have a dog that is very sporty, that is active, I need to give that dog some boundaries around the other expectations of life, to help balance out the very high-energy lifestyle with a calmer lifestyle when we're outside of the training arena, if that makes sense.
00:17:58.161 --> 00:18:03.961
Deborah Wolfe: We're gonna go to break, but before we do, I wanted to, you just reminded me of this dog I knew.
00:18:03.981 --> 00:18:06.301
Deborah Wolfe: His name was Spook and he was a border collie.
00:18:06.701 --> 00:18:12.981
Deborah Wolfe: And the first time I went to meet him, because the owner said he was very destructive and he wouldn't come when called and he could never be off leash.
00:18:13.001 --> 00:18:14.961
Deborah Wolfe: And I'm thinking, what's the matter with you?
00:18:15.681 --> 00:18:17.181
Deborah Wolfe: Thinking that about the owner.
00:18:17.421 --> 00:18:24.081
Deborah Wolfe: How can you have a border collie or doesn't like this just made no sense to me because they're just so easy to train for someone like me.
00:18:24.521 --> 00:18:31.201
Deborah Wolfe: Anyway, so I went to this guy's house and one of the first things the dog was doing that I witnessed was so adorable.
00:18:31.581 --> 00:18:39.081
Deborah Wolfe: It was taking the shoes of the tenant and the owner and just compulsively kind of rearranging them.
00:18:39.721 --> 00:18:43.921
Deborah Wolfe: So all the outdoor shoes would be on one side and all the indoor would be on another.
00:18:44.401 --> 00:18:46.881
Deborah Wolfe: And the dog would lie down and then he'd wait.
00:18:47.321 --> 00:18:51.041
Deborah Wolfe: And if no one said anything, he'd go back to the shoes and rearrange them again.
00:18:51.301 --> 00:18:53.461
Deborah Wolfe: All the men's shoes and all the ladies' shoes.
00:18:53.721 --> 00:18:56.681
Deborah Wolfe: And then he'd rearrange them again, but always in pairs too.
00:18:57.181 --> 00:19:01.421
Deborah Wolfe: And so one of the first things I had the guy do was the simple get my shoes.
00:19:01.761 --> 00:19:08.401
Deborah Wolfe: The dog started to get him his slippers, he started to get him his shoes, and it gave a purpose to this thing the dog was already doing.
00:19:08.681 --> 00:19:17.321
Deborah Wolfe: The next thing I did was get them on a proper walking regime because the guy worked really long hours and he expected this adult dog to walk itself in his backyard alone.
00:19:17.881 --> 00:19:19.661
Deborah Wolfe: Like, that's not exercise.
00:19:19.781 --> 00:19:22.661
Deborah Wolfe: A yard and a dog alone is not exercise.
00:19:23.101 --> 00:19:27.481
Deborah Wolfe: So we're going to go to break and come back and talk a little bit about stimulation, I think, with Souha.
00:19:27.741 --> 00:19:30.621
Deborah Wolfe: Stay tuned, everybody, on Animal Party Pet Life Radio.
00:19:35.081 --> 00:19:36.801
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00:20:27.761 --> 00:20:28.761
Announcer: On Pet Life Radio.
00:20:30.101 --> 00:20:31.001
Announcer: Pet Life Radio.
00:20:41.757 --> 00:20:45.977
Deborah Wolfe: Hello, you're back on Animal Party Pet Life Radio.
00:20:46.377 --> 00:20:57.697
Deborah Wolfe: And I might be able to dig up a picture of Spook and put that on my Deb Wolfe Pet Expert Facebook site, because he was one of the dogs that they used on the cover of my book.
00:20:57.717 --> 00:21:01.497
Deborah Wolfe: His owner, you know, was, should have known better, quite honestly.
00:21:01.777 --> 00:21:06.657
Deborah Wolfe: His owner was a veterinarian, and he wrote the blurb on the back of my book, Good Dog, that I released back then.
00:21:07.037 --> 00:21:11.837
Deborah Wolfe: But he really did think that a big yard and a dog alone was good enough.
00:21:12.317 --> 00:21:15.017
Deborah Wolfe: How many times do you find that in your practice?
00:21:15.517 --> 00:21:24.417
Souha Ezzedeen: Oh, I, you know, I come across it a fair bit, the idea that, well, we live on a big property, we don't need to go anywhere, or, you know, we have a yard and we don't need to go anywhere.
00:21:24.437 --> 00:21:40.557
Souha Ezzedeen: Now, here's the thing, though, Deb, is that, you know, there's a time when it's actually appropriate to just stay on property for a little while, and to just not go anywhere and use your yard to exercise the dog and then go back inside and go back out in the yard, exercise the dog, and then go out into the world.
00:21:40.937 --> 00:21:45.017
Souha Ezzedeen: There is something to be said about doing that, but that's not what we're talking about here.
00:21:45.037 --> 00:21:47.057
Souha Ezzedeen: We're talking about here that people that-
00:21:47.077 --> 00:21:49.397
Deborah Wolfe: No, no, no, this guy was not outside with the dog.
00:21:49.417 --> 00:21:50.877
Deborah Wolfe: He was opening the door.
00:21:51.137 --> 00:21:56.517
Souha Ezzedeen: Yeah, let the dog out and then thinking that that is enough stimulation.
00:21:56.537 --> 00:22:08.477
Souha Ezzedeen: I see it sometimes in my neighborhood where instead of having them out in the backyard, they will put them on the long line in the front yard, for so-called stimulation.
00:22:08.637 --> 00:22:11.077
Souha Ezzedeen: Now, evidently that is not stimulation.
00:22:11.217 --> 00:22:14.677
Souha Ezzedeen: I like put my dogs out in the yard for what I call solo time.
00:22:14.857 --> 00:22:19.497
Souha Ezzedeen: That is time where they're by themselves, resting, taking in the sights and sounds.
00:22:19.697 --> 00:22:30.517
Souha Ezzedeen: But that is just one aspect of an otherwise rich day-to-day existence that also includes a bit of decompression and rest on their own in a fenced-in yard.
00:22:30.537 --> 00:22:31.777
Souha Ezzedeen: That's certainly appropriate.
00:22:32.317 --> 00:22:41.057
Souha Ezzedeen: But to think that that alone should provide a dog, and especially a border collie stimulation, no, that's not the way to go.
00:22:41.257 --> 00:22:45.057
Souha Ezzedeen: And again, also stimulation is not just exercise and sport.
00:22:45.417 --> 00:23:12.857
Souha Ezzedeen: In my philosophy, I feel and I know that dogs can also feel deeply challenged and deeply stimulated and put on their toes when they can sense that the human that they are living with gets them, gets dogs and is organizing life, running the show, governing the kingdom in a way that resonates deeply with the dogs.
00:23:12.857 --> 00:23:19.257
Souha Ezzedeen: And that makes the dogs constantly now interested in figuring out ways that they can please us.
00:23:19.357 --> 00:23:21.257
Souha Ezzedeen: And it's really magical and beautiful.
00:23:21.277 --> 00:23:27.397
Souha Ezzedeen: And I encourage anyone who's interested in this line of thinking to explore it in my book, The Way of Life Method.
00:23:28.217 --> 00:23:36.417
Souha Ezzedeen: And so what ends up happening is that when I am on top of things, that is also stimulating for the dog.
00:23:36.437 --> 00:23:45.677
Souha Ezzedeen: Now that doesn't mean that sport is not stimulating, that toys and games and hikes and sport and enrichment toys, they all have their place.
00:23:45.717 --> 00:23:50.937
Souha Ezzedeen: But what is ultimately stimulating, I think for a dog is a human that really gets dogs.
00:23:51.277 --> 00:23:54.197
Souha Ezzedeen: That is very interesting and exciting for a dog.
00:23:54.357 --> 00:23:56.257
Souha Ezzedeen: And what does it mean to get dogs?
00:23:56.657 --> 00:24:07.197
Souha Ezzedeen: It means to organize the way of life, design the way of life with the four pillars that I discussed in a way that makes sense to the dog according to where we are in the relationship.
00:24:07.217 --> 00:24:10.937
Souha Ezzedeen: So I've mentioned this point several times already, so let me talk about it.
00:24:11.337 --> 00:24:13.217
Souha Ezzedeen: There are stages to relationship.
00:24:13.377 --> 00:24:15.337
Souha Ezzedeen: There are stages to development.
00:24:15.737 --> 00:24:24.597
Souha Ezzedeen: When I first meet someone, the relationship is different than this person and I five years down the road, than this person and I 15 years down the road.
00:24:24.957 --> 00:24:32.337
Souha Ezzedeen: And again, for those of us who are parents, we see it in raising children, childhood, adolescence, adulthood.
00:24:32.837 --> 00:24:34.677
Souha Ezzedeen: I'm also a university professor.
00:24:34.697 --> 00:24:38.977
Souha Ezzedeen: That is also another part of my careers, being a university teacher.
00:24:38.997 --> 00:24:46.197
Souha Ezzedeen: And I deal with my undergrad students quite differently than I deal with my master's students, than I deal with my doctoral students.
00:24:47.257 --> 00:24:51.057
Souha Ezzedeen: And so that logic applies when I'm dealing with a dog.
00:24:51.677 --> 00:24:58.637
Souha Ezzedeen: A new dog, new puppy, new rescue, dog with issues that I'm trying to have a reset with.
00:24:58.997 --> 00:25:01.277
Souha Ezzedeen: We go to stage one, foundations.
00:25:01.637 --> 00:25:04.857
Souha Ezzedeen: Foundations means I have a juvenile on my hands.
00:25:05.397 --> 00:25:07.577
Souha Ezzedeen: Juvenile, regardless of age.
00:25:07.917 --> 00:25:15.377
Souha Ezzedeen: Because if they're new in your home and they're at a loss as to what all of this is and what it means, they're kind of like a juvenile.
00:25:15.937 --> 00:25:23.017
Souha Ezzedeen: If you've been dealing with reactivity and anxiety and aggression for years and years and years, the dog's development is stunted.
00:25:23.037 --> 00:25:25.357
Souha Ezzedeen: So they're sort of a juvenile.
00:25:25.597 --> 00:25:30.157
Souha Ezzedeen: So I go back to that juvenile stage, which I call foundations.
00:25:30.797 --> 00:25:35.877
Souha Ezzedeen: And then eventually we're able to kick in into adolescence, which I call exposure.
00:25:35.977 --> 00:25:41.617
Souha Ezzedeen: And that is where I take my dog out in the world and I start to teach my dog things.
00:25:41.617 --> 00:25:43.877
Souha Ezzedeen: But now I have foundations with that dog.
00:25:44.137 --> 00:25:44.997
Souha Ezzedeen: I'm relevant.
00:25:45.157 --> 00:25:46.597
Souha Ezzedeen: They want to learn from me.
00:25:46.617 --> 00:25:48.517
Souha Ezzedeen: They care what I have to teach them.
00:25:49.517 --> 00:25:58.877
Souha Ezzedeen: And then as they start to develop education in the world, success in the world under my guidance and with my leadership, now we're ready for adulthood.
00:25:59.257 --> 00:26:12.017
Souha Ezzedeen: Adulthood now means integration, full integration of the dog in my home, in the family, with other dogs, dogs having freedom of choice, dogs having off leash opportunities, playing with their friends.
00:26:12.337 --> 00:26:14.957
Souha Ezzedeen: But we would have made our way there gradually.
00:26:14.977 --> 00:26:40.977
Souha Ezzedeen: I would have had foundations to start and then I would have educated my dog and then the reward of education, the reward for doing well in the world, the reward for socializing appropriately with other dogs, people, vets, groomers and other parts of a dog's life, eventually earn that dog their place in my home, their freedom in my home, their access to me 24 seven.
00:26:40.997 --> 00:26:46.257
Souha Ezzedeen: But we give this to dogs immediately and then they don't have a motivation to work for it.
00:26:46.817 --> 00:26:51.077
Souha Ezzedeen: Meanwhile, all dogs want to work for their place.
00:26:51.077 --> 00:26:57.437
Souha Ezzedeen: And I don't care how big or small, fluffy, cute, bully, excel or Maltese, doesn't matter.
00:26:57.537 --> 00:27:00.597
Souha Ezzedeen: They all want to earn their place in our home.
00:27:00.937 --> 00:27:12.837
Souha Ezzedeen: But we give it to them immediately, unconditionally, without the benefit of foundations and without the dogs having proven themselves to us that they've earned, that they've deserved it with integration.
00:27:13.097 --> 00:27:18.297
Deborah Wolfe: We touched a little bit about breeds, Border Collies, Aussie Sheps and Pit Bulls.
00:27:18.617 --> 00:27:23.437
Deborah Wolfe: But I wanted to ask you, because I kind of divulged that I love working with Border Collies.
00:27:23.457 --> 00:27:25.177
Deborah Wolfe: There's a lot of dogs I love working with.
00:27:25.437 --> 00:27:27.437
Deborah Wolfe: There's some that frustrate me though.
00:27:27.697 --> 00:27:31.897
Deborah Wolfe: And I want to know, is there a breed that challenges you or frustrates you?
00:27:32.477 --> 00:27:33.557
Souha Ezzedeen: Such a good question.
00:27:33.877 --> 00:27:35.457
Souha Ezzedeen: You know, I would say no.
00:27:35.557 --> 00:27:39.377
Souha Ezzedeen: And I would say no with confidence that it's not the breed that can challenge me.
00:27:39.397 --> 00:27:50.797
Souha Ezzedeen: But what can challenge me sometimes is, is the human handler's understanding of the breed or their conviction that a breed cannot do this or is not able to do this.
00:27:51.137 --> 00:27:56.097
Souha Ezzedeen: That is what frustrates me more, is when people put limits on what their dogs can do.
00:27:56.697 --> 00:27:57.977
Deborah Wolfe: Can you give me an example?
00:27:58.237 --> 00:28:01.997
Deborah Wolfe: Like not the name, but the type of dog and what they thought the dog couldn't do?
00:28:02.377 --> 00:28:07.537
Souha Ezzedeen: Yes, so for example, I have a client of mine that lives in the city, has come a very long way with the dog.
00:28:07.557 --> 00:28:11.057
Souha Ezzedeen: The dog is, you know, to be able to take this dog places.
00:28:11.077 --> 00:28:12.517
Souha Ezzedeen: And luckily, we live in cities.
00:28:12.537 --> 00:28:17.237
Souha Ezzedeen: I don't know about Vancouver, but here in Toronto, we are able to take our dogs on buses and subways and trains.
00:28:17.257 --> 00:28:18.777
Souha Ezzedeen: And it's fantastic.
00:28:18.797 --> 00:28:22.137
Souha Ezzedeen: But we also need to have dogs that are confident enough to be able to handle it.
00:28:22.637 --> 00:28:31.177
Souha Ezzedeen: So just as an example, with this particular client, she was able to do an excellent job getting her dog on the train, getting her dog on the streetcar.
00:28:31.197 --> 00:28:36.237
Souha Ezzedeen: But there's something about the bus that she felt he would have a hard time with.
00:28:36.377 --> 00:28:39.917
Souha Ezzedeen: And she continued to think that he wouldn't do well taking the bus.
00:28:39.957 --> 00:28:43.517
Souha Ezzedeen: And meanwhile, I'm putting pressure on her and saying, he can do the bus.
00:28:44.417 --> 00:28:49.217
Souha Ezzedeen: And I wanna talk to you at the end of the week, telling me that he did the bus and you took the bus.
00:28:49.257 --> 00:28:51.957
Souha Ezzedeen: And I'll get a message saying, we took the bus.
00:28:51.977 --> 00:28:55.457
Souha Ezzedeen: He was a little bit bothered by the sound of the, you know, when the bus-
00:28:55.477 --> 00:28:55.817
Deborah Wolfe: The brakes.
00:28:55.997 --> 00:28:56.857
Souha Ezzedeen: Yeah, exactly.
00:28:56.957 --> 00:28:58.237
Deborah Wolfe: The brakes, I know.
00:28:58.617 --> 00:29:00.257
Deborah Wolfe: I've done that training before.
00:29:00.317 --> 00:29:02.657
Souha Ezzedeen: But otherwise, he was a champion.
00:29:02.677 --> 00:29:04.717
Deborah Wolfe: Trains have loud brakes too, and trucks.
00:29:04.737 --> 00:29:06.137
Souha Ezzedeen: He handled it just fine.
00:29:06.157 --> 00:29:11.017
Souha Ezzedeen: But I was, you know, trying to get the human to see the potential in the dog.
00:29:11.337 --> 00:29:14.177
Souha Ezzedeen: Now, does that mean that all breeds can do all things?
00:29:14.437 --> 00:29:15.617
Souha Ezzedeen: No, of course not.
00:29:15.617 --> 00:29:20.657
Souha Ezzedeen: But that is a far cry than me putting limits that may or may not be there.
00:29:20.997 --> 00:29:21.397
Deborah Wolfe: Yeah.
00:29:21.597 --> 00:29:30.997
Deborah Wolfe: I mean, some situations where I have breeds, like there was this guy, he had this huge lake right next to his house, and he really wanted his golden retriever to be trained not to swim.
00:29:31.237 --> 00:29:31.517
Souha Ezzedeen: Right.
00:29:31.537 --> 00:29:33.037
Deborah Wolfe: That was a tough one, okay?
00:29:33.477 --> 00:29:41.037
Deborah Wolfe: Like sometimes, or I have trouble sometimes with what I would call the simpler breeds.
00:29:41.717 --> 00:29:45.837
Deborah Wolfe: Like it can take a very long time for a pug to even learn its name.
00:29:46.177 --> 00:29:52.337
Deborah Wolfe: Have you not discovered this yourself, that some learn more slowly and have a lot of trouble with memory?
00:29:52.797 --> 00:29:56.097
Souha Ezzedeen: So learning slowly, learning quickly, absolutely.
00:29:56.117 --> 00:30:01.777
Souha Ezzedeen: That I would place that in the department of, let's say cognitive intelligence, Deb, right?
00:30:01.797 --> 00:30:08.317
Souha Ezzedeen: The ability to learn new tricks, do different things, able to handle more complex skills like a border collie.
00:30:08.337 --> 00:30:10.177
Souha Ezzedeen: I mean, they're just kings when it comes to-
00:30:10.197 --> 00:30:12.817
Deborah Wolfe: Then they're visual, so that's helpful too.
00:30:12.837 --> 00:30:18.797
Souha Ezzedeen: They're incredibly smart and I have 10 years of herding under my belt, and so I have seen these dogs in action.
00:30:18.817 --> 00:30:20.297
Souha Ezzedeen: It's absolutely beautiful.
00:30:20.877 --> 00:30:47.737
Souha Ezzedeen: But I'm coming from a slightly different angle, is that if the way of life is organized correctly, even breeds that, let's say, don't get it as fast as, let's say, a border collie might, because the way of life is organized well and they're not stressed, and they're handled well, and we're working with them according to who they are, they start to display a greater potential that perhaps we thought going in, if that makes sense.
00:30:48.257 --> 00:30:52.457
Souha Ezzedeen: But absolutely, there are breed differences in terms of catching things and learning things.
00:30:52.817 --> 00:30:55.437
Deborah Wolfe: Yeah, and things like Irish wolfhounds and St.
00:30:55.457 --> 00:31:05.157
Deborah Wolfe: Bernard's, I've had quite a lot of times where I've been hired just to teach them something specific, like, don't be afraid of the stairs on our new house, or come into our new car.
00:31:05.577 --> 00:31:13.997
Deborah Wolfe: Our new car, which is the exact same model as our old car, and we bought the same model because we knew you'd have problems, and now you think you can't fit anymore.
00:31:14.917 --> 00:31:18.857
Deborah Wolfe: Stuff like that would never happen with a Border Collie, right?
00:31:18.877 --> 00:31:19.477
Deborah Wolfe: Like it just...
00:31:19.757 --> 00:31:22.417
Deborah Wolfe: Or a poodle, a standard poodle, can you imagine?
00:31:22.757 --> 00:31:25.917
Deborah Wolfe: What mental lapse would it take for a standard poodle to make that mistake?
00:31:26.117 --> 00:31:27.377
Deborah Wolfe: But these dogs are huge.
00:31:27.397 --> 00:31:27.577
Deborah Wolfe: St.
00:31:27.597 --> 00:31:29.517
Deborah Wolfe: Bernard's are worried they're going to fall through.
00:31:29.717 --> 00:31:31.617
Deborah Wolfe: And rightly so, you know?
00:31:32.877 --> 00:31:35.837
Deborah Wolfe: So some of the breed differences, I think, are just common sense, really.
00:31:35.877 --> 00:31:37.837
Souha Ezzedeen: Absolutely, they are.
00:31:37.857 --> 00:31:47.157
Souha Ezzedeen: And you know, to the point that you made earlier, sometimes there's just a very poor match between the people they want and the breed and what they want.
00:31:47.337 --> 00:31:53.537
Souha Ezzedeen: I think it was around this time last year that I was on a call with a world-renowned surgeon who works.
00:31:53.757 --> 00:31:57.417
Souha Ezzedeen: I mean, you know, she's always in hospital.
00:31:57.437 --> 00:31:58.877
Souha Ezzedeen: She's always working.
00:31:59.317 --> 00:32:02.377
Souha Ezzedeen: And guess what kind of breed did she call me about?
00:32:03.937 --> 00:32:04.977
Deborah Wolfe: You like why?
00:32:05.277 --> 00:32:06.237
Deborah Wolfe: Why, why, why?
00:32:06.257 --> 00:32:10.557
Souha Ezzedeen: You know, a Border Collie that is in daycare every day, you know?
00:32:10.577 --> 00:32:16.057
Souha Ezzedeen: And that's also, you know, the social stimulation is important, but it's been my experience.
00:32:16.077 --> 00:32:24.937
Souha Ezzedeen: Maybe it's been different for you, Deb, but it's been my experience that with these working type dogs, the Aussies, the Border Collies, we think that social stimulation is what they want.
00:32:24.977 --> 00:32:29.977
Souha Ezzedeen: It's been my experience that they are more about working as opposed to socializing.
00:32:30.257 --> 00:32:38.577
Souha Ezzedeen: They're more about doing something that has meaning and purpose as opposed to just tearing around, playing with other dogs.
00:32:38.977 --> 00:32:41.757
Souha Ezzedeen: They want to perform as opposed to just play.
00:32:41.777 --> 00:32:48.677
Souha Ezzedeen: And this woman just could not, this world-renowned surgeon could not possibly meet that dog's needs.
00:32:48.817 --> 00:32:59.117
Souha Ezzedeen: And she was actually on some level even a little bit surprised when I said that I would want her to consider whether they were an ideal fit for each other.
00:32:59.517 --> 00:33:09.577
Souha Ezzedeen: You know, she didn't think that a trainer would talk about fit, but I have to talk about fit and ask whether a person is really able to deliver what this dog's needs.
00:33:09.997 --> 00:33:15.697
Souha Ezzedeen: Sometimes we can compromise, but sometimes, as in this case, compromise was just not possible.
00:33:15.997 --> 00:33:19.777
Deborah Wolfe: Have you ever had a dog you gave up on or a person dog combo?
00:33:19.797 --> 00:33:22.577
Deborah Wolfe: You just could you had to say to them, I can't help you anymore?
00:33:22.877 --> 00:33:23.517
Souha Ezzedeen: Not yet.
00:33:23.877 --> 00:33:24.337
Deborah Wolfe: Oh, good.
00:33:24.577 --> 00:33:25.697
Deborah Wolfe: Oh, good.
00:33:25.717 --> 00:33:28.037
Deborah Wolfe: Well, everybody, that means she won't give up on you.
00:33:28.057 --> 00:33:31.397
Deborah Wolfe: They want to reach you or get your book.
00:33:31.417 --> 00:33:32.257
Deborah Wolfe: How do they do that?
00:33:32.637 --> 00:33:33.257
Souha Ezzedeen: Excellent.
00:33:33.277 --> 00:33:40.417
Souha Ezzedeen: So you can find out more about me and my way of life dog training at wayoflifedogtraining.com.
00:33:41.097 --> 00:33:46.117
Souha Ezzedeen: You can find out more about the book and where to find it at thewayoflifemethod.com.
00:33:46.137 --> 00:33:55.337
Souha Ezzedeen: That's the name of the book, The Way of Life Method, How to Heal Your Relationship with Your Dog and Raise a Sound, Strong and Spirited Companion at Any Age.
00:33:55.897 --> 00:34:10.577
Souha Ezzedeen: You can find on my website, my blog, you can find at wayoflifedogtraining.com newsletter, my newsletter archive and a place to sign on for my mailing list to get news, to get monthly articles, events, updates.
00:34:10.997 --> 00:34:35.817
Souha Ezzedeen: And for anyone who is reading the book and starting with the method and implementing the method and experimenting with the method, I would really encourage them to join a growing group I have on Facebook called The Way of Life Method Working Group where people who are reading the book and who are challenging the method get to come together and share updates, ask questions.
00:34:35.877 --> 00:34:42.417
Souha Ezzedeen: It's been wonderful to see how people are doing so wonderful with this method, but it is different, Deb.
00:34:42.437 --> 00:34:44.577
Souha Ezzedeen: It's a different way of thinking about dogs.
00:34:44.597 --> 00:34:47.957
Souha Ezzedeen: It's a different way of thinking about how to fix problems.
00:34:48.417 --> 00:34:49.977
Souha Ezzedeen: We go beyond labels.
00:34:49.977 --> 00:35:00.777
Souha Ezzedeen: We go beyond excuses, including breed excuses, including the excuses we make about these dogs being rescues and damaged goods and they're traumatized and they're never gonna get better.
00:35:01.057 --> 00:35:03.177
Souha Ezzedeen: You know, we look beyond all of that.
00:35:03.437 --> 00:35:11.817
Souha Ezzedeen: I say, until you've tried the way of life, you've not tried everything because people who come to me tend to be folks who would have tried.
00:35:12.237 --> 00:35:14.217
Deborah Wolfe: Everything else first, that's right.
00:35:14.477 --> 00:35:14.897
Deborah Wolfe: I know.
00:35:14.917 --> 00:35:15.517
Souha Ezzedeen: Exactly.
00:35:15.717 --> 00:35:16.917
Deborah Wolfe: That's what I get too.
00:35:16.937 --> 00:35:19.817
Deborah Wolfe: I never get the easy, come sit, stay, heal anymore.
00:35:19.837 --> 00:35:23.137
Deborah Wolfe: I get the bit the nanny doesn't like grandma.
00:35:23.317 --> 00:35:25.457
Souha Ezzedeen: They would have gone to the corrective trainers.
00:35:25.477 --> 00:35:26.997
Souha Ezzedeen: They would have tried different tools.
00:35:27.017 --> 00:35:31.337
Souha Ezzedeen: They would have tried education and they're not able to solve their problems.
00:35:31.357 --> 00:35:37.537
Souha Ezzedeen: They're desperate, but also now open to a different way of doing things because nothing that they've tried has worked.
00:35:37.957 --> 00:35:43.257
Souha Ezzedeen: And those tend to be successful way of life clients.
00:35:43.557 --> 00:35:51.917
Souha Ezzedeen: Those that have minor issues and have not tried everything, they're not really interested in the big makeover that I'm suggesting.
00:35:51.937 --> 00:35:53.517
Souha Ezzedeen: They just want a little renovation.
00:35:53.537 --> 00:36:00.617
Souha Ezzedeen: Meanwhile, I'm saying, I want to hold tear down and then let's have another conversation about what the problem really was all about.
00:36:00.697 --> 00:36:01.597
Deborah Wolfe: Oh, I love that.
00:36:01.617 --> 00:36:11.477
Deborah Wolfe: Like I get people who call up Camp Good Dog and they want to send their dog with a page long list of problems and they want me to fix it and then send it back to them.
00:36:11.537 --> 00:36:17.757
Deborah Wolfe: And I say to them, well, I can fix all these things, but you have to come for a lesson and I'll teach you how to get the same results I get.
00:36:18.417 --> 00:36:19.797
Deborah Wolfe: Oh, I don't have time for that.
00:36:20.037 --> 00:36:21.697
Deborah Wolfe: Well, it's not a television.
00:36:21.877 --> 00:36:26.457
Deborah Wolfe: Like it doesn't just have a fuse that I need to switch and then we send it back and it works.
00:36:26.757 --> 00:36:29.637
Deborah Wolfe: It's not a vacuum cleaner with a cut wire.
00:36:30.797 --> 00:36:33.697
Deborah Wolfe: The dog is perfectly good and he'll probably listen to me the first day.
00:36:33.957 --> 00:36:36.677
Deborah Wolfe: It's gonna be a problem getting him to listen to you, lady.
00:36:36.697 --> 00:36:47.517
Deborah Wolfe: And one thing, I don't know if you agree with this, but one thing I find, the difference between people who, like you were mentioning, seem to have a knack or away with animals and people who don't.
00:36:48.337 --> 00:37:01.477
Deborah Wolfe: A huge part I see is not so much their intention because the people who can't train their dog sometimes love it so much, they just spoil it, spoil it, spoil it with unearned affection, but is timing.
00:37:01.677 --> 00:37:03.517
Deborah Wolfe: That seems to me the big difference.
00:37:03.537 --> 00:37:08.437
Deborah Wolfe: People who reward their dog at the right time and people reward their dog at the wrong time.
00:37:08.557 --> 00:37:15.177
Deborah Wolfe: Because if you reward your dog for the stuff you don't like, you're gonna see it over and over and over because you're confusing him.
00:37:15.197 --> 00:37:16.477
Deborah Wolfe: You're telling him that's what you want.
00:37:16.997 --> 00:37:27.077
Deborah Wolfe: And so if they could just hold off on the cuddles and the treats and the baby talk until he does the right thing, you'll have a good dog in no time.
00:37:27.397 --> 00:37:34.897
Souha Ezzedeen: Does the right thing, not only does the right thing, but becomes the healthier dog that they are within.
00:37:35.337 --> 00:37:41.697
Deborah Wolfe: Yes, so like an example would be the dog's afraid of something, a couple of steps that you've taught him over and over and over again.
00:37:41.717 --> 00:37:47.557
Deborah Wolfe: But every single time you get to these two steps, he always barks and he waits for you to bend down and give him cuddles and love.
00:37:47.917 --> 00:37:53.017
Deborah Wolfe: No, just gently get him to go over it and then give him the cuddles and love.
00:37:53.277 --> 00:37:56.057
Deborah Wolfe: And within a couple of days, he won't even be afraid of those tears anymore.
00:37:56.277 --> 00:37:59.597
Deborah Wolfe: But you've taught him that if he acts afraid, he'll get cuddles and love.
00:37:59.997 --> 00:38:02.597
Deborah Wolfe: So, all right, everybody, oh, we have to wrap up.
00:38:02.617 --> 00:38:03.537
Deborah Wolfe: We've run out of time.
00:38:03.557 --> 00:38:04.737
Deborah Wolfe: You know how to get her book.
00:38:04.937 --> 00:38:07.077
Deborah Wolfe: You know where to find the way of life dog training.
00:38:07.337 --> 00:38:10.237
Deborah Wolfe: Thank you very much, Souha Ezzedeen, for joining us today.
00:38:10.257 --> 00:38:11.497
Souha Ezzedeen: Thank you so much.
00:38:11.877 --> 00:38:13.017
Deborah Wolfe: Okay, everybody.
00:38:13.237 --> 00:38:18.257
Deborah Wolfe: From Souha and me, Deb Wolfe and Animal Party, be good to your animals.
00:38:19.317 --> 00:38:25.277
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